Heruli

One person has written an excellent article on the Heruls (14.11.04) (at least much better than what was there), which Wiglaf seems to have deleted or replaced by the old artilce, which is really quite bad. Wiglaf seems to be very insistent on his views. Why is that? The modern literature really shows that a Scandinavian origin of the Heruls cannot be postulated on the basis of the historical sources. I would like to see the new article of 14.11 on the Wikipedia, which is accurate and balanced. Thanks Claudia:-)

:Dear Claudia, I am very sorry that you consider the article to convey ''my views''. If you had read a little further down, you would have seen that I have only added info about Procopius. Moreover, thanks for confirming the veracity of the version I removed. We have had a lot of vandalism by anonymous users who remove the myths/histories provided by Procopius and Jordanes (considering your IP number, you are one of them). This is very much against the purpose of Wikipedia. You are free to edit the page as you wish as long as you don't arbitrarily remove information to fit your views (i.e. vandalizing the page). I will unwatch this article for a while and return in a few weeks. If the info about Procopius and Jordanes is gone, I will add it where I see fit, and then we can discuss ''my views'' and yours.Mosquito ringtone Wiglaf/Wiglaf 15:31, 15 Nov 2004
:First of all, I have no knowledge about this subject at all. All I can say relates only to customs on Wikipedia. Typically, when an article is "really quite bad", the first step in dealing with it is for those who see specific errors to correct them, hopefully in a way that is small and simple enough that others can easily view the difference and decide about it. If the errors are not solvable in this way, then, before replacing the whole or large parts of the article, the person who noticed the errors would explain them on the Talk page, and probably also include the new version, so it could be examined and critiqued before it replaced the original. Claudia,(you might also sign in if you don't mind, as it would make it easier to contact you), would you mind doing this with the new version of the article you refered to? (I applogize if this has already been done below, and I didn't understand it because, as I said, I am ignorent of this specific subject) Thanks! Sabrina Martins JesseW/JesseW 04:44, 16 Nov 2004

Quality of Heruli article=

I have several times tried to improve the Heruli article by deleting speculative and outdated information about their supposed Scandinavian origins, their mastery of runes and their battle tactics. The first assertation is impossible to demonstrate on the basis of the available sources and should not be stated so firmly as some people seem to wish. They may have come from Scandinavia or northern Germany, but the fact is that we have no way of knowing. The assertation that the Heruls were rune masters who formed the elite of Scandinavia and that the Scandinavian title Jarl is derived from their name is simply wrong. The title Jarl is derived from an IE word for 'free man' and there is no evidence that the Heruls in south east Europe ever used runes. Finally, we know nothing about their battle tactics. Procopius, reports that the Heruls who served in the Roman army were typically employed as lightly armed infantry.

:''Jarl'' did not mean "free man", it meant "chieftain". You're confusing the word with ''karl''. You assert that there is no way of knowing their origins. You could begin with what early medieaval scholars considered to be their origins and you're closer than not knowing at all. Even though, a small number of German and American scholars question the Scandinavian origin of some Germanic tribes, modern scholarship still generally considers Southern Scandinavia (often including Northern Germany) to have been the origin of the Germanic tribes. If you disagree with some of the information, try to ''expand'' the discussion rather than removing what does not fit your picture of the Heruli.Free ringtones Wiglaf/Wiglaf 18:48, 9 Nov 2004
^

Certainly, the term Jarl became to mean chieftain, but the IE root is derived from eril, meaning free man. Your assertation that the writing of early medieval authors would automatically bring you closer to the truth is wrong. In many cases it takes you further from the truth as the recent controversial discussions of Jordanes and Procopius have shown. You really need to familiarise yourself with the academic literature when you want to discuss these question or even edit an article on the Heruls. Secondly, the assertation that the Germanic people originated in Scandinavia has been rejected by mainstream scholarship already some 30 years ago. Most recent in this line of research is the voluminous study by Prof. Udolph who refutes this assertation on linguistic grounds. Other work has shown that also on archaeological grounds a Scandinavian origin of the Germanic people has to be rejected. Thirdly, I think this is a dictionary not a discussion board. As professional historian I can contribute to this topic, but I cannot expand an article which is ridden with speculation and outdated information. (Anonymous contribution from un-logged-in 82.35.89.68, whose single recent edit can be inspected at theb page History)

:Thanks! It is good that you are a professional historian and consequently you would probably not mind answering these points:
:#Can you provide any references about the ''Eril'' root, because it sounds very interesting? I have tried to look for it in my works of reference and it is oddly missing.


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See for example, Krahe/Meid "Wortbildungslehre", or G. Neuman "Heruler - Philologisches, Der Name" in RGA, Letter H.

:Two German sources. Why does not for instance the Majo Mills AHD note this root in its extensive list of roots?Nextel ringtones Wiglaf/Wiglaf 18:52, 14 Nov 2004

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:#Moreover, you claims of ''rejection'' sound quite unfamiliar because mainstream archaeologists are very wary of connecting ethnicity to archaeological cultures. Even though, I have studied a lot of archaeology, I am quite unfamiliar with such discourse. Can you name more than one archaeologist who makes these ''rejections''?



As you probably know, we can speak of Germanic only since the first sound shift of around 500BC. The first Iron age culture that can be linked with clearly Germanic culture is the Jastorf culture in North Germany. Please refer to the large body of Jastorf literature to glean the mainstream view on this.

:So what about the southern half of Scandinavia?Abbey Diaz Wiglaf/Wiglaf 18:52, 14 Nov 2004






:#Udolph is one scholar. In what way does he represent modern linguistics? If you go to the Goth discussion Linguistlist, you'll see that your claims of rejection are spurious[http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0205&L=gothic-l&D=1&F=&S=&P=985].
:#If that was your single edit, why did you need to state it?
:I'd be grateful if you'd like to fill in on these questions.Mosquito ringtone Wiglaf/Wiglaf 16:09, 14 Nov 2004



Discussion groups are hardly the source from which to optain a qualified view. Please refer to the latest RGA entries on East Germanic, Germanic etc.

:The people at Linguistlist do not have less credibility than an anonymous contributor at Wikipedia.Sabrina Martins Wiglaf/Wiglaf 20:24, 14 Nov 2004





PS: Hooker (1996):

:Archaeologists put the geographical origin of the Germanic peoples in southern Scandinavia and northern Germany.



That is not very controversial. In the past scholars believed the Germanic people originated in Scandinavia today the evidence emanating from the work on the Jastorf culture combined with linguistic studies points more to Northern Germany, but for an author like Hooker is safer to include the whole region.

:You again claim that the Jasdorf culture is the only relevant part of the Pre-Roman Iron Age. I rest my case.Nextel ringtones Wiglaf/Wiglaf 18:52, 14 Nov 2004


There, they developed a warrior culture that was essentially democratic in character. As they migrated south and east, this democratic warrior society developed into a kingship and, as they came in contact with the Romans and Romanized Celts, they developed further aristocratic classes among the warriors and nobility.[...] The Goths originally migrated from Scandinavia and from there migrated south into Europe and east into southern Russia (some of their descendants still live in the Crimean area). The reason for this migration are unclear, but the standard, default interpretation is that they were pressured by overpopulation.[http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~dee/MA/GERMANS.HTM]

Moved here from Talk:Heruls

The title 'Heruliis' is wrong and should be changed to 'Heruls' or/and 'Eruli'. This people is usually called Heruls in the literature, but the Latin name Eruli is also widely used, while the form 'Heruliis' is a wrong mixture of the two names.
:I've moved it to Heruls, with a redirect at Eruli. But there is also a (larger) article at Abbey Diaz Heruli. These two articles should be merged, but I don't know under which article name. Cingular Ringtones Eugene van der Pijll/Eugene van der Pijll 10:54, 3 Jun 2004

::Encyclopedia.com, Bartylby, and Encarta all prefer ''Heruli''. ''Heruls'' gets a few hundred Google hits. ''Heruli'' gets a few thousand. I'm merging them at Heruli. on macroeconomic Quadell/Quadell because mutual User_talk:Quadell/(talk) 18:37, Jul 13, 2004

Removed text

I removed the following, since I couldn't confirm it, and it was questioned in the past. If there are any sources for this, please let me know. sodom if Quadell/Quadell zilch every User_talk:Quadell/(talk) 19:09, Jul 13, 2004


Organized as "wolf-packs", each pack of no more than a dozen or so was lead by two older males, an alpha- and beta-wolf. Younger men (aged approximately 15-21) comprised the retinue of the two wolf-leaders. After their summer-long (from April 31 to October 31) training in military, genealogy, cultic practice, sexuality, and other items necessary to social order, the youths were initiated into full manhood when they had killed another man in battle, or had killed a wild boar or large bear in the hunt. Exclusively foot-soldiers, the Heruli were a nomadic tribe who used horses only for moving their camps. A particularly frightening tactic of the Heruli which amazed the Romans, was that they were so fast on foot that they would team up with a horse-riding warrior, hang on to the mane of the horse with their left hand, wield their swords with their right hand, and charge into battle, running as fast as the horse directly into the fray.

Several of these names also have homosexual innuendo, such as Hrozaz ("Agile"), Uha ("Big One"), Sa Wilag ("The Wily"), Wagigaz ("Audacious"), Wiwila ("Little Slave"), and Ubaz ("Mischievous").




This text is complete fantasy. There is no historical source to support any of this. Even the personal names are made up.
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I have restored my alleged "fantasy" along with the superb academic reference I drew it from. I also have included a complete list of all known "erilaZ" inscriptions, transcriptions, translations, and some commentary, to show that the names were not "made up". And I added all the classical sources at the bottom, with full references, since I have read and translated all of these from the Latin and Greek. Connell O'Donovan, UC Santa Cruz, odonovan@ucsc.edu

Recent text removal

An anonymous user recently deleted a lot of text without explaining why. I have no idea if the deleted text was accurate or inaccurate, but if anyone knows more than I do, please, fill me in.
I'm not sure if the deletions should be reverted or not. defining issue Quadell/Quadell same investors User_talk:Quadell/(talk) 00:03, Sep 7, 2004
::Think of them as pubescents with hockey sticks "accirentally" sweeping canned goods off the shelves of the Seven-Eleven. wearer taps Wetman/Wetman 00:10, 7 Sep 2004


The removed text was entirely wrong. It reported speculative, outdated and simply wrong information about the Heruls. The current text is not ideal, but it is much stronger and much more reliable than the old version, which included wrong information about runic inscriptions, Herulic battle tactics etc.

Jordanes reference repeatedly erased
The following statement apparently offends Anonymous pursue social User:213.219.53.82 who has repeatedly suppressed it:
:''The war outbreak 6th century chronicler story crash Jordanes reports a tradition that they had been driven out of their homeland long before by the major preoccupation Daner/Dani, which would have located their origins in present-day kidney or Denmark.'' Whether Jordanes was correct or not, the statement is a statement of fact. I won't reinsert it again. I expect some nationalist program at work here, not some advanced historical understanding. presidential races Wetman/Wetman 15:47, 7 Sep 2004

::I have no idea why, but there are Scandinavians who have political and ideological problems with Jordanes, due to an exaggerated glorification of Scandinavia based on Jordanes in the past (see for instance this article cover expenses Geatish Society). The reaction was severe and it still makes this field rather infected.in avranches Wiglaf/Wiglaf 20:07, 9 Sep 2004

The problem is that the statement is wrongly interpreted. To be precise, the interpretation is long outdated. Scholars like H. Wolfram have shown that the statement does not refer to the distant past, but to some confused recent events, or according to Christensen was inserted for political reasons. At any rate, the statement says nothing about the origins of the Heruls. Secondly, if the statement was correct and had refered to ancient times, this would not place their origins in modern Denmark, since Dani likely lived mostly in souther Sweden and the Danish isles, but not on Jutland at the time. (Anonymously posted by anon. christmas warning User:213.219.53.82)
:The problem, quite to the contrary, is that hohn admits Jordanes' statement has been suppressed, not that it is wrongly interpreted here at Wikipedia. This 6th century historian's errors would be discussed rather than suppressed by any honest contributor. Dishonest justification of a dishonest action. dividends feb Wetman/Wetman 14:38, 9 Nov 2004

:It is a fact that both Jordanes and Procopius talked about a Scandinavian origin. A small number of modern scholars may question this, but it is dishonest to remove such information, as Wetman says.not fastidious Wiglaf/Wiglaf 18:34, 9 Nov 2004

:BTW, Wolfram sounds like he is presenting a hypothesis that is even harder to prove than the Scandinavian origins.sticks lashed Wiglaf/Wiglaf 20:26, 9 Nov 2004

::Agreed. In areas where we know as little as we do about the Heruli, every scrap of primary evidence should be presented, whether it seems garbled or not. Then follow this with critical commentary on those scraps. The summary by 213.219.53.82 indicated that Wolfram has one theory and Christensen as another. The proper course, if these theories have any following, is to improve the article by summarizing those theories. Also, nowhere in the article is Jutland mentioned. I don't see the relevance of that point. User:Jallan/Jallan 14:53, 16 Nov 2004


"Harii" equal "Heruli"?
This text is a slender personal fantasy, not worthy of ''Plinius and Tacitus (circa 95 CE) both mention Suebian tribes called the Harii or Hirri. That the Harii and the Heruli are basically synonymous is strongly evidenced by the fact that in the 500s when Salinga, daughter of the last Heruli king Rhodoulph (Honor-Wolf?), married Wacho, king of the Lombards, as his third polygynous wife, she named her son by him Walt-Hari - modern Walter - "ruler of the Hari/marauders". See both Prokopios and Paulus Diaconus for this episode. Also note that the common name Harold is identical as well, from Hari-Walt.)'' I have not removed it, however, as interfering in this article seems hopeless. But why not an article Harii? Wetman/Wetman 21:01, 25 Jan 2005

"Slender personal fantasy, not worthy of Wikipedia"???! That's really offensive and uncalled for. Such comments make working with Wikipedia much more of a challenge for scholars than it ought to be. In the academic world, we try to keep our criticisms less personal. If Wetman has evidence to the contrary, please reveal it; I welcome it. Otherwise keep your rudeness to your self. I've been exhaustively researching the Heruli for over nine years here at UC Santa Cruz, carefully reading and translating the more than 30 Greek and Latin classical sources that refer to them, plus reading Scandinavian, German, British and American academic commentary. While other reputable scholars have only speculated a connection between the Harii and the Heruli, to date I'm the only one who has uncovered textual proof that this might actually be accurate. To have my research trivialized by being called "slender personal fantasy" really angers me. User:Connell/Connell, 2 Feb 2005

:Why does A equal B? is the intelligent question. Why is this personal fantasy, jumping about in 500 years of unrelated history to reach unwarranted amateurish conclusions (or is there some printed material on which this original "research" is based?) not to be considered "slender? My problem is with the zany text, not its inventor. Wetman/Wetman 04:37, 3 Feb 2005

My question is, why doesn't A of 95 CE equal A of 520 CE? Your ad hominem attack only reveals your own amateurishness. My conclusion is hardly "zany" for attempting to bridge a mere 450 years (in a roughly similar geographical area: "Germania"). I cite the preeminent, Dumezilian Indo-Europeanist and brilliant Estonian linguist, Jaan Puhvel, who postulated a Proto-Indo-European root *Hwergh-, "strangle", by comparing the Hittite word for wolf, hurkel of 1600 BCE with the Germanic word for wolf and "strangler", warg, found in the fifth century CE Germanic legal document, the Lex Salica. (See Jaan Puhvel, "Hittite hurkis and hurkel," Die Sprache 17 (1971) pp. 42-45 and Mary R. Gerstein's highly regarded work based on Puhvel's "slender personal fantasy", "Germanic Warg: The Outlaw as Werwolf", in Larson and Puhvel's Myth in Indo-European Antiquity, 1974, University of California Press, pp. 131-156. Puhvel bridges TWO THOUSAND ONE HUNDRED years, about as many miles, and only distantly related Indo-European ethnoi, and his conclusion stands; but my speculation is "unwarranted" and "zany" for looking at a 450 year difference, with Tacitus's Harii being nearly identical to Salinga's Hari? I can only conclude from Salinga's actions that the last acknowledged Heruli princess believed that her son was "ruler of the Hari", otherwise she would not have bothered naming him that. Speculative? Absolutely. "Slender personal fantasy"? Not by a long shot. User:Connell/Connell, 7 March 2005